33 replies to this topic

[mantadoc]

gsi marc, on 22 January 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Thanks guys really torn now on this conversion, If i do go for it what else will i need from the senator. what about wiring ecu etc has the engines still running in the car so i can get everything in one go would be fitting to an already injected 2.0 litre Thanks marc

Before people scare you what year senator? a pic of engine would not go amiss

[mantadoc]

"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

Basically dead easy, same as Manta. Use gearbox and prop that you would in a Manta.
First make a choice are you going to lower the Anti-roll bar and shorten the drop links, thus making a car you can't drive hard without ripping the ARB mounts out of the rails. Not enough length in the links to allow for the track change so as it rolls it works the ARB mounts laft and right.
Or....
Make a sump and pickup pipe?
Measure from back of block to engine mount bolt hole on a 4 cyl, next do it for a 6 cyl. That's the dimension you need to bring the bolt holes on the crossmember that far forward. Then you can use Manta CIH mounts on the engine, 3.0 monza mounts on modified crossmember.
Use the monza mounts that look  like the 4 cyl ones but longer.
If you have the later round LH mount lose it and use the solid type (like right hand)
Hint standard engine mount plates on crossmember have an edge on top that sticks up, bend it onto the crossmember and weld it too it. Otherwise the standard steel mounts on the crossmember will shift with the weight.
Then make 4mm plate extensions that are bolted to original mount hole on crossmember and gusseted to the crossmember and welsed too. Must be rigid and strong but not too high. or bonnet probs later.
it's a 12V yes?
Dump the front pulley for a Manta one, single V instead of triple gains space.
Dump water pump for early one so it has 4 bolt flange so gain space and either use fixed fan (slim and cheap) or electric.
Volume out sump and design tank hint nearer sump is to crank over crossmember area lower you can sling it. I did this by putting sunp on a flat surface upside down work out lowest height over back big end journal. Cut a block of wood to that height. Hold a scribe flay on the wood and slide the block around the sump scratching the line of what to remove.
Bored now

Blah blah move rad crossmember
Do exhaust as either close 2 into 1 Y
Or get some joints out of scrap exhausts and 1pipe goes from manifold to a 2 into 1 under engine (space between crossmember and bellhousing is ideal) other pipe runs other side of steering column, but because of joints easy to dismantle.
First time I did this we pulled 2.0 Fri PM and he drove it to work Sunday.

No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West []

"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

I was looking for a sketch of the plans n stuff, scanned in years ago, looks like it got binned.
One nice benefit is as the mounts are farther forward the gearbox will swing down enought to easily change it complete with lever.
Don't be tempted to put plates on the block to move the mounts 1 cyl back to avoid modifying the crossmember as there is then enough engine (over half) in front of the pivot point.

"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

No warranty of any kind implied or given etc, this is just how I've done it a couple of times and not a recomendation of any kind.

Still had hard copy

Small

Triangle, sticky out edge on right and edge on bottom fold over and welded up corners to add rigidity. That slight slope on the edge of the right sticky out bit is not an accident.
Remember what I said earlier about the tag on the engine mount piece that is welded to the crossmember being tapped over to touch the crossmember where it comes up..... don't forget that.
The template is turned over to make the L/H mount.
Another smaller hole is required near the mount hole to allow the tang of the mount to engage.
This bracket was bolted to the crossmember through the rubber mount fixing hole and welded too. The actual steel may have evolved since the template but only in the area of the triangle.
The crossmember is the same regardless of L/H mount design, the L/H engine mount rubber and mount on engine are what changes. This brackett was designed to be used with the solid Monza mounts (they will fit standard Manta R/H side and L/H for older cars that don't have the round mount. However, as the Crossmember bit is the same it may well work for the round mount too, although I wouldn't advise letting a mount for the 2.0 with the weight of the 3.0
Large: http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/plans.jpg[/url]

Back when I did this for Ant he got an engine for £100 and all the rest of the stuff cost under £100, so for less than £200 he got about 170BHP back when PMCs 145BHP kit was over £600


Spot the extra scoop, on this one the water way in the throttle body rubbed the bonnet so a hole was cut and the scoop added, anyone guess what it was off?
The bonnet internals were cut away in the required area. We didn't need a scoop on the second one and as far as I remember the mount design was the same.


Note where the fixed fan sits, I cut a slot in the mesh in the bonnet centre triangle, as per the one in Hooten park to aid in lifting the bonnet, of course with the 3.0 running it was finger tickling good as I soon found out.
The engine bas wasn't pretty before we started, anything not tidy I didn't touch []
For this car we used a Carlton rad, some 2" by 4mm strip was used to fold a U shape, the sides of which touched / were welded to the inner edges of the chassis rails. It was a sloped nose carlton. Boxes were welded to the bottom of the U to hold the Carlton rad bottom mounts. Can't remember the top.
The rad crossmember was removed after some box section was welded between the front of the chassis rails to maintain structural integrity.
The second car had a fibreglass 4 slot, so with this removed we mounted a Sierra 1.6 rad between the rails after notching them, mounting was done by 4 mini exhaust bobbin mounts. Rad crossmember was again removed but this time replaced by box section that sat behind the rad.

No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West []

"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

If you've got a GTE ahh it's a cav, well if your cav is a 4 speed that will fit, as will the flywheel etc. Standard GTE clutch lasts 10k miles or two good standing starts, that is a subsequent expense not included in the £200.
I would convert to 5 speed first first as having the box securely mounted in the right place is key to keeping the back face of the block lined up with the gearbox in the original place, if you want to put it together with standard parts.   Either that or get it bolted in on your existing box sort the mounts etc, then change the box if your using something that requires custom prop or box mounts.
If you go for an Auto all Manta throttle  pedals (AFAIK) have the mount for the kickdown on, but not the tube in the bulkhead next to the throttle cable hole.
You may need a needle roller bearing if converting an auto engine to take manual box, at least one I've come across already had the roller behind the plug.
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"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

Have a look when you have them both out, or maybe someone else on  here knows? Most of that kind of stuff seems to have generic type numbers.
I've swapped flywheels across models over the years so pretty sure the end of all cranks is the same, which would mean that if they fit any flywheel they will fit any CIH drive plate. I would hope the 3.0 drive plate is tougher, and if the box was the same externally i.e mounts and fits your prop I would use the 3.0 stuff.
And yep, the back face of the 6cyl CIH block is the same as the  4cyl CIH, gearboxes will fit.
As your cav won't have EFI you will have some plumbing and wiring to do unless you found something with carbs. Bright side if you are using the older L or LE Jetronic engines it plumbs in the same as the Manta GTE stuff. Just watch out for the external ballast resistors on the older type and the odd EGR valve which adds to the complexity of vacuum pipes.
Don't let the above paragraph bother you. Ideally you are looking for an engine where all the EFI stuff looks like Manta GTE just with two extra injectors and a slightly different auxiliary air bypass valve.

Found a pic of sump

The engine above was for the second car..... it went to Ireland too




No warranty implied or given [] New shorter posts to minimise global warming by conserving ones and zeros [] The uncivilized end of the North West []

"mantadoc":2rl6duhl said:

This is a mates car about 10 years ago.
As it arrived, bumper bent from muppet towing it. Apparently it broke down on its way to be sprayed and the owner couldn't get the bonnet open so sold it.

Easily opened with the old "push the bracket back" trick.
I did open it before it was bought.

Worth the £200 for the wheels and lights I think. Compomotive 3 piece.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/03.jpg
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/06.jpg
Fibreglass nose. Not a preference but ok.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/07.jpg
Stripped front and raiator crossmember roughed out.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/08.jpg
Rad cross member to chassis rails tidied.
Anti-roll bar left in standard position.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/09.jpg
Engine in, big wing sump behind anti-roll bar.
Chassis rail repaired where rusty and notched to fit a 1.6 Sierra rad that way lying around.
Mini bobbin exhaust mounts from the original mini x4 for the rad mounts.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/10.jpg
Rad in place. There is a box section welded in between the chassis rails between it. Very important to tie the rails together after removing the original.
You can fit a rad in this position with a steel nose, you just have to cut out the support bit.
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/11.jpg
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/12.jpg
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/13.jpg
http://www.atcy66.ds.../misc/3l/14.jpg

[monzta]

[gsi marc]

Thanks monzta really have started something here havnt i, I first liked the idea of the straight six because from driving the senator the power is instant and alot smoother than the 2.0 i have fitted and this is an afordable option for me as the car is there. Could always make the wife sit in the boot , like the porche comment by the way what about the wiring issue on the auto ecu any ideas thanks,,, marc

mantadoc, on 22 January 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Not much info i need to find out now. Thanks for that and some nice under bonnet pics there too.What do you need to do wiring wise has one of the earlier coments said the automatic ecu s a pain to fit a manual. Not got any pics of car yet but will post some as soon as i do thanks for the help,,, marc

Edited by gsi marc, 22 January 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[mantadoc]

gsi marc, on 22 January 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Not much info i need to find out now. Thanks for that and some nice under bonnet pics there too.What do you need to do wiring wise has one of the earlier coments said the automatic ecu s a pain to fit a manual. Not got any pics of car yet but will post some as soon as i do thanks for the help,,, marc

You still haven't answered what year senator.

[gsi marc]

mantadoc, on 22 January 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

You still haven't answered what year senator.

OOps sorry G reg 1990

[Jason b]

opel2000, on 22 January 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Always a fan of the straight 6 for and against topics.

Myself I always wonder why they stopped putting the straight 6 into modern cars...... Hmm replaced by modern lighter engines at a guess.

Straight 6's though are generally lovely smooth torquey lumps, but If I was going to the hassle of doing a stright 6 it would definately be a Skyline straight 6, would never contemplate the GM unit for one minute and definately not the GM 2.5 lump.

Would also go to say....
Handling
Laws of physics simply dictate that to change the given mass moving in a certain direction will take X amount of effort
To change the direction of more mass moving in a certain direction will take more effort.
Ok so springs are designed to absorb cornering energy amongst other things but, I simply and totally refuse to believe that the laws of physics do not exist in straight 6 engined Manta's.  Handling must suffer.
But then again if I had gone to the time effort and expense of fitting one I I may possibly tell a bit of a porky and say "NAH!,,,, Nah!,,,,, NAH! handling is spot on Mate!"

Love the comments on the youtube clip "look how fast a straight 6 can go" Throw enough cash at any engine and it will go well, throw a little cash at the right engine and it will go well too is my argument, approx £800 thrown at my old 200SX (1.8 engine) would have seen 250 bhp and that is a well known conservative figure on these 1.8 engines. Superb tiny little lightweight lump approx half the weight and size of the GM straight 6

There are good modern lightweight extremely tuneable superb modern engines with plentiful parts out there, and there are old pig iron lumps that are hard to source parts for out there too, that "may not" enhance the superb handling of the Manta.

^I agree very much with this!

There are few reasons to use a C30NE - however they happen to be the reasons that suit my particular needs. a) It sounds amazing with a decent exhaust The torque is there in spades and delivered smoothly c)you get a hard-on for lovely balanced engines d) you want to re-create a "what if vauxhall made this from the factory" type of feel

These are the reasons I have fitted a senator 6 - if I wanted an amazing handling/huge power monster etc etc. then there are plenty of other ways to fit something much better for similar budgets (supposing that you are slinging an engine in without first rebuilding it...) - however I already have a 106 rallye rally car for point-to-point handling and fun of that kind.

Without significant attention to detail in fitting then a 6pot cav/manta still feels a little unwieldy due to the extra weight, it can't fail to, as it weighs a fair bit more. In summary, if you want a high performance car then it might be worth looking elsewhere, however if you want a cruiser which can lay down some serious acceleration and a beautiful soundtrack on a relatively slim budget then you may as well fit a 6pot CIH engine!

[mantadoc]

As before, if you try to drive it like a go cart it will tend more towards understeer than the four pot. If you four wheel drift or step the back out, which brings the nose in, it's not so different.

The best thing about the 3.0 though is they make a car that can pull well to overtake at higher speeds and without having to thrash to do it, but seeing as they are a smooth 6 you can rev if you want to.


Also a 3.0 that has had it's life spent attached to an auto and had a less thrashed life is a lot more likely to be making  more of it's original BHP than an unrebuilt 24 year old redtop

And if going the redtop route you then need  to source an expensive gearbox and sump and mix and match clutch parts


At the end of the day it's horses for courses, outright handling family II engine, budget cruiser with some grunt, straight 6



Next engine for my Manta (eventually) might be the frontera 2.4 with 2.2 plenum and frontera injection I acquired in 1998 or it might be the Ecotec 2.0 from my Vectra as I'm sure that would be nearer to it's 136 BHP than any cheap redtop I might buy as I would run standard injection, plus hoping to keep the ecotec alarm and fob

[Jason b]

Yep, that's is what I'm getting at. Don't get me wrong, my 6pot cav is a joy to drive and feels nice in the corners (plenty of grunt to balance the understeer) but is not a go-kart. If an aftermarket engine is being sourced then budget for 1thou of bore wear per 10 thousand miles on a 6cyl (though probably all types of) CIH engine. They are very strong engines, but you'll find that it is the bore wear which is significant on a high miler.

I also agree about an auto-barge senator with a careful owner having many more horses in the stable as a percentage of those from new than most xe engines!

[mantadoc]

gsi marc, on 22 January 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

OOps sorry G reg 1990

Is it the old 3 speed gearbox?

gsi marc, on 22 January 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

OOps sorry G reg 1990

1990 was change over year. Do you have a diagnostic socket as per Motronic? Usually near octane plug andnaother sign would be an EML on the dash

I'll look it up tomorow for possibilities

[monzta]

I wouldnt bother to do alot of work fitting the automatic loom to manual gearbox loom. I would get hold of a loom and box used for a manual car instead. And there are plenty of cars to get theese things from. Best option would be to find a Monza or Senator to get the parts from as especially the last couple of years those cars where made, many of them came with a 5 speed getrag 265..

Alternatly you could consider using the auto transmission in the Manta, but that just wouldn´t feel right i suppose

If i where you i´d get an engine and gearbox etc from a manual gear car as they are cheap and easy to find. That way you can take all that you need. The 4 cyl CIH Manta gearbox be the Getrag 240 5 speed or the GM 4 speed will not take the high torque of the CIH 6 anyways.. So you need to adress the gearbox issue anyways..

[Tempesta48]

So after reading the whole topic, to drift what's better:

A) Opel Manta with tuned 2.0E (mine has now 2.2 block with 2.0 head)
Opel Manta with 3.0E from Monza
C) Stock Monza with 3.0E

I've found a cheap Monza from 1981 with this engine and I'm considering a swap or just buying the whole car. I'm not sure if the 3.0E from 1981 has LSD or not. Can't find information.

Thanks!

Edited by Tempesta48, 25 January 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Jason b]

Monza in standard form gets my seal of approval as it could well have an lsd (if not then just weld the planet gears up if it's not for road use) and they look great and go well anyway. If you're planning on drifting  then I would say you are better off starting with the powerful platform and shedding weight from it... the alternative is to spend more time doing an unnecessary engine swap to a car that probably won't handle as well without a fair amount of work.

You pays your money you takes your choice

[Tempesta48]

Thanks Jason b, then I think I'll buy the Monza for drifting as I can always upgrade it with the 24v engine and keep the Manta for street use.

Best regards!